path: root/meeting-logs/20240414.txt

[2024-04-14T20:00:01+0100] <@sam_> !proj council
[2024-04-14T20:00:02+0100] <willikins> sam_: (council@gentoo.org) ajak, dilfridge, mattst88, mgorny, sam, soap, ulm
[2024-04-14T20:00:05+0100] <@sam_> hello!
[2024-04-14T20:00:09+0100] <@sam_> Agenda: https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-project&m=171259225430396&w=2
[2024-04-14T20:00:16+0100] <@sam_> arthurzam: ^
[2024-04-14T20:00:23+0100] <@sam_> 1. Roll call
[2024-04-14T20:00:24+0100] • sam_: here
[2024-04-14T20:00:25+0100] • arthurzam: here (proxy for mattst88)
[2024-04-14T20:00:35+0100] • mgorny: here
[2024-04-14T20:00:50+0100] • ulm: here
[2024-04-14T20:02:58+0100] <@sam_> ajak: soap: dilfridge: wakies
[2024-04-14T20:03:14+0100] <@sam_> we'll wait 5 minutes
[2024-04-14T20:03:14+0100] <+arthurzam> dilfridge|mobile: maybe this ping?
[2024-04-14T20:03:18+0100] <@sam_> ah, good point
[2024-04-14T20:03:31+0100] • soap: here
[2024-04-14T20:03:33+0100] <+arthurzam> (and if yes, please renick for logs)
[2024-04-14T20:03:44+0100] <@ulm> we have a quorum :)
[2024-04-14T20:08:04+0100] <@sam_> ok
[2024-04-14T20:08:07+0100] <@sam_> let's crack on
[2024-04-14T20:08:26+0100] <@sam_>  
[2024-04-14T20:08:27+0100] <@sam_> 2. Foundation dissolution status update
[2024-04-14T20:08:43+0100] <@sam_> I included this given I think we ought to every meeting unless we have a reason not to
[2024-04-14T20:08:59+0100] <@sam_> We have a development, I think, as the SPI meeting took place after our last meeting
[2024-04-14T20:09:01+0100] <@sam_> ulm: 
[2024-04-14T20:09:20+0100] <@ulm> a news item about SPI (by dilfridge, robbat2 and me) is on our front page
[2024-04-14T20:09:37+0100] <+arthurzam> https://www.gentoo.org/news/2024/04/10/SPI-associated-project.html
[2024-04-14T20:09:53+0100] • ajak: here
[2024-04-14T20:10:03+0100] <@ajak> (sorry)
[2024-04-14T20:10:09+0100] <@sam_> right, we had a formal invitation in https://www.spi-inc.org/corporate/resolutions/2024/2024-03-11.js.1/
[2024-04-14T20:10:14+0100] <@sam_> we then accepted it
[2024-04-14T20:10:20+0100] <@sam_> what is next?
[2024-04-14T20:10:21+0100] <@ulm> might be useful to have a trustees meeting in the near future to define the roadmap
[2024-04-14T20:11:06+0100] <@ulm> we also have a porject page there: https://www.spi-inc.org/projects/gentoo/
[2024-04-14T20:11:12+0100] <@ulm> with a donate link
[2024-04-14T20:11:44+0100] <@sam_> I think that's about it for us - other than encouraging the trustees meeting to happen soon
[2024-04-14T20:11:46+0100] <@sam_> right?
[2024-04-14T20:12:05+0100] <@ulm> yeah, no other news
[2024-04-14T20:12:10+0100] <@sam_> ok, wfm :)
[2024-04-14T20:12:18+0100] <@sam_>  
[2024-04-14T20:12:19+0100] <@ulm> obviously some details must still be worked out
[2024-04-14T20:12:25+0100] <@sam_> yeah
[2024-04-14T20:12:28+0100] <@sam_> 3. Concerns about (lack of redundancy) in PR project [1]
[2024-04-14T20:12:31+0100] <@sam_> [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/925014
[2024-04-14T20:12:32+0100] <@sam_> mgorny:
[2024-04-14T20:13:15+0100] <@mgorny> well, i don't think they've replied to anyone at all, did they?
[2024-04-14T20:13:27+0100] <@sam_> nope
[2024-04-14T20:13:29+0100] <+arthurzam> Me (and also mattst88) also think that infra secrets is a good place to store them. Do we know who controls those accounts?
[2024-04-14T20:13:41+0100] <@sam_> ajak lists some in the bug and I think that's roughly right
[2024-04-14T20:13:48+0100] <@mgorny> supposedly people listed in the project page
[2024-04-14T20:13:48+0100] <@sam_> we should definitely have them in the infra secrets repo as a fallback
[2024-04-14T20:14:08+0100] <@ajak> should infra have peoples' personal creds? or an infra account should be added to the services? or what?
[2024-04-14T20:14:08+0100] <@sam_> I explicitly CC'd maffblaster, rich0, alicef now but they are presumably on the assignee alias anyway (pr@)
[2024-04-14T20:14:24+0100] <@sam_> for mastodon, it's a shared account
[2024-04-14T20:14:31+0100] <@mgorny> what sam_ said
[2024-04-14T20:14:33+0100] <@sam_> for reddit, I guess we should have an official gentoo one which is an admin, which nobody uses
[2024-04-14T20:14:44+0100] <+arthurzam> ajak: we should use the secrets repo as only fallback in case lost creds or contact
[2024-04-14T20:15:00+0100] <@ajak> yes, but creds should be in secrets.git for what account?
[2024-04-14T20:15:05+0100] <@mgorny> no harm in having two rules
[2024-04-14T20:15:08+0100] <@mgorny> something like:
[2024-04-14T20:15:16+0100] <@mgorny> 1) if we have dedicated acct, shared creds in infra-secrets
[2024-04-14T20:15:30+0100] <@mgorny> 2) if we need to go through personal accts, at least 2 people
[2024-04-14T20:15:57+0100] <@ajak> works for me, but then we need cooperation of the people controlling those with n<2
[2024-04-14T20:15:58+0100] <@sam_> maybe also: 3) consider having a dummy 'gentooadmin' account or something with permissions which is in infra-secrets
[2024-04-14T20:16:19+0100] <+arthurzam> Hmm, (3) is a good point, a way to recover in disaster
[2024-04-14T20:17:08+0100] <@mgorny> 2 active people, even
[2024-04-14T20:17:24+0100] <@ajak> yeah, good idea
[2024-04-14T20:17:26+0100] <+arthurzam> alicef can be contacted (spoke with her not long ago in IRC), so I think can be done
[2024-04-14T20:17:32+0100] <@sam_> i'm disappointed we had no response from pr@ at all other than dilfridge offering access to the FB
[2024-04-14T20:17:32+0100] <@mgorny> i.e. we probably need to replace all admins right now
[2024-04-14T20:17:49+0100] <+arthurzam> Maybe lost in mailbox
[2024-04-14T20:17:59+0100] <@ajak> arthurzam: i did ping them in -pr
[2024-04-14T20:18:07+0100] <+arthurzam> Oh, I see.
[2024-04-14T20:18:23+0100] <@mgorny> not sure if we ought to issue a call for new members immediately, or set ground rules first and give PR team chance to handle that
[2024-04-14T20:18:38+0100] <@ajak> (and such a responsiveness problem isn't unique to this particular instance aiui)
[2024-04-14T20:18:51+0100] <+arthurzam> I think rules before, and then handle with them to match rules
[2024-04-14T20:19:00+0100] <+arthurzam> I think the suggestions here is very logical and normal
[2024-04-14T20:19:31+0100] <@ajak> how do we get their attention to do anything about it?
[2024-04-14T20:19:53+0100] <+arthurzam> block git push to ::gentoo
[2024-04-14T20:19:53+0100] • arthurzam: hides
[2024-04-14T20:20:16+0100] <@mgorny> set a deadline and immediate retirement if they don't meet it xP
[2024-04-14T20:21:09+0100] <@sam_> it's hard because I'm not really sure what we could/should do here
[2024-04-14T20:21:12+0100] <@sam_> but it's also a real problem
[2024-04-14T20:21:33+0100] • ajak: nods
[2024-04-14T20:21:33+0100] <@sam_> I guess we email pr@ and cc all members explicitly and tell them the suggestion is not acceptable
[2024-04-14T20:21:37+0100] <@mgorny> it's really a problem that the PR team should address itself
[2024-04-14T20:21:39+0100] <@mgorny> but see above
[2024-04-14T20:21:39+0100] <@sam_> the lack of reachability and lack of redundancy
[2024-04-14T20:21:46+0100] <@sam_> s/suggestion/situation/
[2024-04-14T20:22:06+0100] <@mgorny> another option is to disband PR team from above
[2024-04-14T20:22:09+0100] <@mgorny> but that also sucks
[2024-04-14T20:22:46+0100] <@ajak> not exactly the best way to ensure we get shared access to all the things, either
[2024-04-14T20:23:03+0100] <@sam_> this is the issue, we need something from them
[2024-04-14T20:23:07+0100] <@sam_> which fundamentally requires them to.. do something
[2024-04-14T20:23:13+0100] <+arthurzam> Maybe setup the playground rules and policy, and then give them appropriate time to initiate contact, and handle the process
[2024-04-14T20:23:13+0100] <+arthurzam> Some of the accounts aren't personal, so should be simple to handle
[2024-04-14T20:23:38+0100] <+arthurzam> Perform personal pings - should work
[2024-04-14T20:23:42+0100] <@mgorny> well, we managed games team in the past
[2024-04-14T20:23:49+0100] <@mgorny> we can manage PR
[2024-04-14T20:23:59+0100] <@sam_> my suggestion is we write to gentoo-project@ about it and also do:
[2024-04-14T20:24:00+0100] <@sam_> [20:21:33]  <@sam_> I guess we email pr@ and cc all members explicitly and tell them the suggestion is not acceptable
[2024-04-14T20:24:02+0100] <@sam_> and then go from there
[2024-04-14T20:24:12+0100] <@sam_> s/suggestion/situation/ :)
[2024-04-14T20:24:16+0100] <@ajak> how about: email them explicitly, ping them on irc, just notify by any means, see if that gets us anywhere by next meeting?
[2024-04-14T20:24:20+0100] <@sam_> right
[2024-04-14T20:24:29+0100] <+arthurzam> ajak++
[2024-04-14T20:24:51+0100] <@ajak> i'm not sure publicly thrashing them is best, maybe -core? (surely that's higher visibility due to lower traffic than -project/-dev?)
[2024-04-14T20:24:57+0100] <@mgorny> let's draft that -project mail later and review before sending
[2024-04-14T20:25:02+0100] <@sam_> wfm
[2024-04-14T20:25:08+0100] <@mgorny> s/-project/-core/
[2024-04-14T20:25:21+0100] <@sam_> (on both counts)
[2024-04-14T20:25:21+0100] • ajak: yes
[2024-04-14T20:25:38+0100] <@sam_> I was about to ask if anyone objects
[2024-04-14T20:25:42+0100] <@sam_> I guess a vote works if needed
[2024-04-14T20:26:30+0100] <@sam_> let's crack on
[2024-04-14T20:26:35+0100] <@mgorny> just to be clear, we're talking about a mail requesting better redundancy, with specific suggestions from the conversation above?
[2024-04-14T20:26:36+0100] <@sam_> I think it's fine and not objectionable
[2024-04-14T20:26:37+0100] <@sam_> yes
[2024-04-14T20:26:46+0100] <+arthurzam> yes
[2024-04-14T20:26:51+0100] • mgorny: yes
[2024-04-14T20:26:55+0100] • sam_: yes :D
[2024-04-14T20:27:11+0100] <@sam_> soap, ulm:
[2024-04-14T20:27:39+0100] • ulm: yes (though not sure why we would need a vote)
[2024-04-14T20:27:47+0100] <@sam_> nor me but people started voting :)
[2024-04-14T20:27:56+0100] <@sam_> I was just agreeing 
[2024-04-14T20:28:02+0100] <@ajak> .. me too
[2024-04-14T20:28:14+0100] <@sam_> ok whatever
[2024-04-14T20:28:24+0100] <@ajak> i am not sure that was a real vote but we have a majority anyway
[2024-04-14T20:28:25+0100] <@sam_> let's call it acclamation 
[2024-04-14T20:28:26+0100] <@sam_> yes
[2024-04-14T20:28:33+0100] <@sam_> it's not like this is remotely controversial anyway
[2024-04-14T20:28:34+0100] <@sam_> SO
[2024-04-14T20:28:38+0100] <@sam_> that's the next topic..
[2024-04-14T20:28:38+0100] <@sam_>  
[2024-04-14T20:28:39+0100] <@sam_> 4. Policy on AI contributions and tooling [2][3][4]
[2024-04-14T20:28:46+0100] <@sam_> [2] https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-dev&m=170904501611467&w=2
[2024-04-14T20:28:46+0100] <@sam_> [3] https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-project&m=171194365632070&w=2
[2024-04-14T20:28:46+0100] <@sam_> [4] https://marc.info/?l=gentoo-dev&m=171103460625707&w=2
[2024-04-14T20:28:48+0100] <@sam_> mgorny:
[2024-04-14T20:28:50+0100] <@sam_> oh and arthurzam:
[2024-04-14T20:28:54+0100] • soap: yes
[2024-04-14T20:29:31+0100] <+arthurzam> I think we can just vote on the motion, just need to repeat it for logs?
[2024-04-14T20:29:38+0100] <@sam_> sure
[2024-04-14T20:29:50+0100] <@sam_> in [4], mgorny proposed this:
[2024-04-14T20:29:53+0100] <@mgorny> yeah, let's go straight to vote if nobody has any questions
[2024-04-14T20:29:59+0100] <@sam_> """
[2024-04-14T20:29:59+0100] <@sam_> It is expressly forbidden to contribute to Gentoo any content that has
[2024-04-14T20:29:59+0100] <@sam_> been created with the assistance of Natural Language Processing
[2024-04-14T20:29:59+0100] <@sam_> artificial intelligence tools.  This motion can be revisited, should
[2024-04-14T20:29:59+0100] <@sam_> a case been made over such a tool that does not pose copyright, ethical
[2024-04-14T20:29:59+0100] <@sam_> and quality concerns.
[2024-04-14T20:29:59+0100] <@sam_> """
[2024-04-14T20:30:11+0100] <@ajak> i think it sort of goes without saying that the motion can be revisited but i won't 'no' it on that basis
[2024-04-14T20:30:30+0100] <@sam_> for mail also has, for the benefit of the log:
[2024-04-14T20:30:31+0100] <@sam_> This explicitly covers all GPTs, including ChatGPT and Copilot, which is
[2024-04-14T20:30:31+0100] <@sam_> the category causing the most concern at the moment.  At the same time,
[2024-04-14T20:30:31+0100] <@sam_> it doesn't block more specific uses of machine learning to problem
[2024-04-14T20:30:31+0100] <@sam_> solving.
[2024-04-14T20:30:33+0100] <@sam_>  
[2024-04-14T20:30:40+0100] <@sam_> any questions before voting?
[2024-04-14T20:31:12+0100] <@soap> nope
[2024-04-14T20:31:16+0100] <@sam_> ok
[2024-04-14T20:31:19+0100] <@sam_> let's vote then
[2024-04-14T20:31:20+0100] • sam_: yes
[2024-04-14T20:31:23+0100] • mgorny: yes
[2024-04-14T20:31:24+0100] • arthurzam: yes
[2024-04-14T20:31:26+0100] • ajak: yes
[2024-04-14T20:31:27+0100] <@ulm> is the "also has" part included in the motion?
[2024-04-14T20:31:31+0100] • soap: yes
[2024-04-14T20:31:59+0100] <@sam_> no, it's just relevant context, "obiter dicta"
[2024-04-14T20:32:06+0100] <@ulm> k
[2024-04-14T20:32:09+0100] • ulm: yes
[2024-04-14T20:32:12+0100] <+arthurzam> The motion is between """ and """"
[2024-04-14T20:32:41+0100] <@sam_> 6 yes which is everyone in attendance as dilfridge isn't here
[2024-04-14T20:32:48+0100] <@sam_> motion passes
[2024-04-14T20:33:09+0100] <@sam_>  
[2024-04-14T20:33:10+0100] <@sam_> 5. Open bugs with Council participation [5]
[2024-04-14T20:33:11+0100] <+arthurzam> A stupid question, where do we put this motion? Into Code of Conduct?
[2024-04-14T20:33:25+0100] <@ajak> good question
[2024-04-14T20:33:28+0100] <@sam_> hm, a good question indeed
[2024-04-14T20:34:21+0100] <@ulm> CoC doesn't look right for this
[2024-04-14T20:34:38+0100] <@ajak> no, it's not exactly a living document IMO
[2024-04-14T20:34:41+0100] <@mgorny> it's not like we haven't put a lot of motions that didn't formally end up in any specific document
[2024-04-14T20:34:50+0100] <@ajak> maybe spray it into the github bot or so?
[2024-04-14T20:34:54+0100] <@sam_> right, but I would like to be able to reference it *somewhere*
[2024-04-14T20:35:05+0100] <@sam_> the github bot might be enough
[2024-04-14T20:35:05+0100] <@mgorny> subpage of Project:Council?
[2024-04-14T20:35:07+0100] <@sam_> yes
[2024-04-14T20:35:10+0100] <@ajak> no, but not everything is as important for random contributors
[2024-04-14T20:35:10+0100] <@ulm> council log isn't good enough?
[2024-04-14T20:35:14+0100] <@sam_> then link to it in Larry The Cow's message, perhaps
[2024-04-14T20:35:20+0100] <@sam_> good enough?
[2024-04-14T20:35:33+0100] <@ajak> council wiki page + linked from larry wfm
[2024-04-14T20:35:46+0100] <+arthurzam> good enough for me (ajak's)
[2024-04-14T20:35:47+0100] <@ulm> or make it a GLEP :p
[2024-04-14T20:35:55+0100] <@sam_> it had occurred to me but I didn't want to say it :p
[2024-04-14T20:36:06+0100] <@mgorny> let's have ChatGPT write a GLEP for us
[2024-04-14T20:36:09+0100] • mgorny: hides
[2024-04-14T20:36:27+0100] <+arthurzam> It is actually good at it, just so you know
[2024-04-14T20:36:43+0100] <@sam_> ok i think let's move on
[2024-04-14T20:36:44+0100] <@sam_> 5. Open bugs with Council participation [5]
[2024-04-14T20:36:44+0100] <@mgorny> kinda sounds like paradox
[2024-04-14T20:36:50+0100] <@sam_> [5] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council#Open_bugs_with_Council_participation
[2024-04-14T20:36:51+0100] <@mgorny> requesting a contribution that forbids AI contributions
[2024-04-14T20:36:56+0100] <@sam_> https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=CONFIRMED&bug_status=IN_PROGRESS&email2=council%40gentoo.org&emailassigned_to2=1&emailcc2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailtype2=substring&list_id=7126537&query_format=advanced
[2024-04-14T20:36:59+0100] <@sam_> we have:
[2024-04-14T20:37:05+0100] <@sam_> bug 925014
[2024-04-14T20:37:06+0100] <willikins> sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/925014 "PR services lacking developer redundancy"; Community Relations, User Relations; CONF; ajak:pr
[2024-04-14T20:37:09+0100] <@sam_> already discussed
[2024-04-14T20:37:12+0100] <@sam_> bug 926867 	
[2024-04-14T20:37:13+0100] <willikins> sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/926867 "Vote: Gentoo Linux accepts the invitation to become an SPI associated project [...]"; Gentoo Council, unspecified; IN_P; dilfridge:council
[2024-04-14T20:37:27+0100] <@sam_> all voting is done there & unanimous
[2024-04-14T20:37:30+0100] <@sam_> I think the bug can be closed?
[2024-04-14T20:37:37+0100] <@sam_> ditto bug 925736
[2024-04-14T20:37:38+0100] <willikins> sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/925736 "Vote: Gentoo Linux applies to become an SPI associated project"; Gentoo Council, unspecified; IN_P; dilfridge:council
[2024-04-14T20:37:40+0100] • ajak: yes
[2024-04-14T20:37:51+0100] <+arthurzam> I think yes, we mentioned the vote results in logs, can close for paper trail
[2024-04-14T20:37:54+0100] <@sam_> yes
[2024-04-14T20:38:06+0100] <@sam_> now, there *is* a substantive thing left
[2024-04-14T20:38:20+0100] <@sam_> bug 929012 which we probably should've brought up earlier in item 2 :)
[2024-04-14T20:38:21+0100] <willikins> sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/929012 "Vote on GLEP 76 change: Shift responsibilities from Trustees to Council"; Documentation, GLEP Changes; CONF; ulm:glep
[2024-04-14T20:38:59+0100] <@ulm> it's all in the diff :)
[2024-04-14T20:39:03+0100] <+arthurzam> I think we can straight up jump to ulm's diff https://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=890073&action=diff
[2024-04-14T20:39:08+0100] <@ulm> plus commit messages
[2024-04-14T20:39:14+0100] <@sam_> I think we can just leave that to voting on the bug
[2024-04-14T20:39:22+0100] <@sam_> it's very straightforward
[2024-04-14T20:39:25+0100] <@ajak> yeah, vote asynchronously as the others
[2024-04-14T20:39:29+0100] <@sam_> yes
[2024-04-14T20:39:30+0100] <@ulm> wfm
[2024-04-14T20:39:39+0100] <+arthurzam> mattst88 was supporting for the change
[2024-04-14T20:39:44+0100] <@sam_> ok
[2024-04-14T20:39:47+0100] <@sam_> 6. Open floor
[2024-04-14T20:39:50+0100] <@sam_> anyone got anything?
[2024-04-14T20:40:05+0100] <+arthurzam> me, give a moment to write it
[2024-04-14T20:40:56+0100] <+arthurzam> We have elections in ~2 month - should we start contact with elections team so the elections and all the windows are spaced enough (not repeat previous times where they were very short)
[2024-04-14T20:41:05+0100] <+arthurzam> so start contact + plan
[2024-04-14T20:41:20+0100] <@mgorny> sure
[2024-04-14T20:41:22+0100] <@ajak> ah good idea
[2024-04-14T20:41:29+0100] <@mgorny> let's ping eleections team
[2024-04-14T20:41:33+0100] <@sam_> !proj elections
[2024-04-14T20:41:34+0100] <willikins> sam_: (elections@gentoo.org) arthurzam, neddyseagoon, robbat2
[2024-04-14T20:41:35+0100] <@sam_> ^^
[2024-04-14T20:41:54+0100] <+arthurzam> Oh, didn't know I was there :)
[2024-04-14T20:42:36+0100] <+arthurzam> (and that was all from me for open floor)
[2024-04-14T20:42:45+0100] <@sam_> thanks!
[2024-04-14T20:42:56+0100] <@sam_> I think the ping is probably enough for now and no need for us to do anything else
[2024-04-14T20:43:05+0100] <+arthurzam> I agree
[2024-04-14T20:43:06+0100] <@ulm> plus trustees elections shortly after (for 3 of the 5 trustees I think)
[2024-04-14T20:43:09+0100] <@ajak> yeah, thus the ball rolls
[2024-04-14T20:43:22+0100] <@sam_> ulm: hopefully the last :)
[2024-04-14T20:43:32+0100] <@ulm> yes
[2024-04-14T20:43:35+0100] <+arthurzam> Oh, also missing logs for council march
[2024-04-14T20:43:37+0100] • ajak: counts how many times we've said that
[2024-04-14T20:43:47+0100] <+arthurzam> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council/Meeting_logs
[2024-04-14T20:43:47+0100] <@sam_> arthurzam: yes, I plan on doing them not long after this meeting
[2024-04-14T20:44:10+0100] <@sam_> I should do the logs immediately then do the summary later rather than batching
[2024-04-14T20:44:13+0100] <+NeddySeagoon> arthurzam: You added yourself as an official
[2024-04-14T20:44:14+0100] <@sam_> as logs > nothing
[2024-04-14T20:44:26+0100] <@sam_> anyway
[2024-04-14T20:44:28+0100] <@sam_> I think we're all done
[2024-04-14T20:44:29+0100] <@sam_> thanks all!
[2024-04-14T20:44:31+0100] • sam_: bangs gavel